What do YOU think?

"mr. idk" (mr-idk)
09/04/2013 at 16:12 • Filed to: None

After looking at the comments in this article: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! It seems that more people hate the BRZ/FRS than expected, being that there is quite a bit of love for it here on oppo. i dont mind it, but personally it isnt my cup of tea. How do YOU feel about the BRZ/FRS?

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

DISCUSSION (59)

Party-vi > mr. idk
09/04/2013 at 16:13

Indifferent. I like seeing them as they are a sight to behold with today's lame car design, but other than that it's just a curiosity to me.

Decay buys too many beaters > mr. idk
09/04/2013 at 16:13

I love mine.

William Byrd > mr. idk
09/04/2013 at 16:14

I don't know.

Nibby > mr. idk
09/04/2013 at 16:15

I like it on paper, but I would have to drive it to be sure.

Nibbles > mr. idk
09/04/2013 at 16:16

O P I N I O N | I N C O M I N G :

It is fairly appealing, styling wise. I like the front end more than the rear (both units). Muscular yet lithe from the front, a tad on the generic side from the back. The interior is spartan (a plus). Seats are uncomfortable; I couldn't drive one for more than 10 minutes before my legs started to fall asleep (personal issue). Engine is fairly peppy, though it suffers from a lack of bottom end. Exhaust note (factory and on aftermarket systems I've listened to) leaves a lot to be desired.

mr. idk > mr. idk
09/04/2013 at 16:22

I think its almost like a "splash of color" in todays Japanese car market, and is the most desirable JDM car on the road, although i would rather have a V6 Camaro based on terms of looks (transformers, what can i say?)

Saracen > mr. idk
09/04/2013 at 16:23

I like it on paper so far. It's the successor to the S14 (which I love) that Nissan never built.

Walfisch > Nibby
09/04/2013 at 16:25

Same here. It's nice to look at, and the stats are ok, but if I have to love it, it needs a test drive.

duurtlang > mr. idk
09/04/2013 at 16:26

I like the idea behind it quite a lot, I just don't like the look. Given that there are very few if any recent cars I consider good looking it was to be expected though.

I'd love to have a go in one sometime. Actually, it's the only Japanese car I can think of at this moment I'd consider buying. Ignoring cars from the 80s and before it offers something unique that isn't found anywhere else.

ddavidn > mr. idk
09/04/2013 at 16:28

I would like to drive one. I can see it being a good fit for me. I'd have the BRZ version. But I haven't even sat in one yet.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > mr. idk
09/04/2013 at 16:29

Honestly I'm not a fan of the non-US brands, I'm also not fan of Subaru engines, just find them annoying to work on not that they don't function or do there job. Just not my thing.

I bet they are a blast to drive, but I still feel it should have MOAR POWER. Just a disappointing number on it. I'd rather buy an older mustang and upgrade the suspension.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > mr. idk
09/04/2013 at 16:30

Overhyped.

End of story for me really. There is nothing inherently wrong with the car but I feel like a hater for not getting a hard-on when they're mentioned. 25k is neither cheap nor expensive. 200hp is adequate but not really "good". The LSD is nice, but a genesis coupe will get one with 270hp for about 27-29k depending on how much else you get. It drifts well, but that's because it has crappy tires. It's undoubtedly fun to drive but it also has absolutely useless rear seats that add weight and I don't quite get the point of them. At that rate, might as well put them out and open up the trunk some more to hold 4 tires properly.

If I was to drop 25-30k on a RWD "sports coupe" I will be the bad guy here and say the genesis coupe, the V6 and track pack mustang, and a used RX-8 R3 are better buys and will provide as much, if not more, fun while also being more powerful, more useful, and given the teething problems I was hearing about by some owners, more reliable (besides the RX-8....).

maximillious > mr. idk
09/04/2013 at 16:42

I thank god every time I see one. I like the looks and i like the idea behind them, I like the price and I like the power and handling. NONE of that is why i thank "god" for these though. I thank "god" for these because every time i see one I am reminded that each and every automaker is now dealing with and planning a strategy for their success. What this has done is forced companies like Honda, GM, Nissan, and others to reconsider their strategy and rethink offering affordable, fun, sporty RWD cars to the less financially well off. Every time i see a FRS/BRZ in my mind i thank Toyota and Subaru for what they have done. The end.

RiceRocketeer Extraordinaire > mr. idk
09/04/2013 at 16:45

As Oppo's resident ricer, I must recuse myself from this discussion.

Kailand09 > mr. idk
09/04/2013 at 16:46

I will try to be as partial as I can, but with the MASSIVE fanboyism upon this cars arrival I tend to be biased against it.

I recently saw loads of them attending the local autox, so with that I can say it is great that they are getting more people into autox, and I'm glad they are being used as a sports car and not just a cruiser that is capable of it. On the track they are well poised, and that was great to see as well.

HOWEVER! This is a big however as well. They are obviously slow on the track unless they are modified for more power and better tires. Toyota missed the mark, and the styling is a little bit too much "boy racer" for me. Their size and overall idea is great, but toyobaru totally missed the mark. I'd rather have any of the other sport coupes out there, including the genesis coupe.

I couldn't justify spending the $$ for the toyobaru, and I really dislike them if not for their lack in performance, but also for the crazy mislead status and name they bring to the table without actually showing up to the party.

I hear rumors that the STi version won't have more power either, and just suspension bits or aesthetic bits? If that is true (I'm not certain about this) I will abhor the vehicle. No car deserves any mention of "sport" without making it faster, and I just don't think suspension is enough to justify that on a car that seems to handle just fine already. I will lump it in with the corolla S if that is the case.

Decay buys too many beaters > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
09/04/2013 at 16:46

I don't know, I test drove the Genesis and the Mustang when I was out shopping. I think it all depends where you will do the majority of your driving. There is no thrill in putting the pedal to the floor in an 86, if that is what you are looking for the Mustang and Genesis are definitely better. If you will be spending a lot of time on the highway, the Mustang and Genesis are definitely better. But, if the car is going to be living its life among twisty forest roads, there really is no better choice right now than the 86.

Nobody buys a Miata for its power...

Casper > mr. idk
09/04/2013 at 16:46

I think it's ok. It's a decent platform, at least on par if not better than the Miata for building from. The real problem is that they are over hyped to the point people expect them to lay golden eggs. There are also a lot of people who automatically hate them because they are so talked about, having never even driven one.

I personally don't like new cars. They are getting too big, too disconnected, and too easy to drive. The BRZ I bought my wife is better than most in this regard, but has a lot of weaknesses. For instance the power is low, the chassis is too soft, the stock tires are awful, etc... but in it's defense, it's not intended to be perfect out of the box. The engine is perfectly designed to take boost and post good number, the suspension has fantastic upgrade potential, and they come with mount point for cages out of the box. So to judge them OEM is a bit like judging a piece of wood before it's been carved.

When my Z is done I will start working on the BRZ and I can guarantee it will be a 12 second grocery getter that can corner like a house fly with very little work. Even though my wife thinks it's fine as it is.

mr. idk > maximillious
09/04/2013 at 16:47

i think we have a winner...

MountainCommand > mr. idk
09/04/2013 at 16:48

Finally a car that in a few years, will become affordable, with generous parts and aftermarket support. Not horrible looking. And has a decent baseline to start from. Its a modern day (with a modern price and equipment) japanese tuner.

And keep in mind, the same "tuners" from the 90s werent all hot stuff all stock either. They had a solid platform, which allowed multitudes of different paths to open for modification.

I suppose they shouldnt have marketed it as a sports car. Its not really a sports car. Sporty, yes. But its a tuner type. And tuners arent necessarily sports cars.

maximillious > mr. idk
09/04/2013 at 16:50

Kinja'd!!!

Kurisu95 > mr. idk
09/04/2013 at 17:02

I like it. At least Toyota is trying to be less boring.

Casper > Kailand09
09/04/2013 at 17:05

You seem confused about the term sport... as well as how autocross works. Most of the greatest sports cars in history had quite low power out of the box.

Kailand09 > Casper
09/04/2013 at 17:30

Not at all. Sport means it is used in some form of competition, a "sport". I consider auto cross sporting, and the greatest cars in history could mean something made 30 years ago when 200 horsepower and 151 lbft of torque were not that amazing either. Hell, the damn thing is so underpowered they don't even list those numbers under specs on the Subaru website. I'd be ashamed too. I understand that it is very light weight, but guess what? I watched it on the track, and was unimpressed. It did more than I expected it to and I can praise it for that, but honestly I could list a million other cars I'd buy first.

I'm not hugely experienced and don't have a car to autox in, but I've also gone to watch plenty. I don't know why you must stab my integrity, but this was an *opinion* thread. Don't get so damn defensive.

dinobot666 > mr. idk
09/04/2013 at 17:33

I think you'd have to be fucking mental to complain about a fun to drive, reasonably affordable RWD sports coupe.

Velocity- Peuguette Connoisseur > mr. idk
09/04/2013 at 17:34

Great cars. I don't understand why people complain about the power issue (how is there a power issue when you can drift it at 30 mph?) . That can all be fixed on the aftermarket. Its like how the 240sx was in the 90s, slow out of the box, but could be made a beast.

Casper > Kailand09
09/04/2013 at 17:39

I'm not being defensive, I legitimately did not believe you knew what you were talking about. Autocross has classes, it's not all cars in a free for all. The BRZ/FR-S is most likely in a class with the Miatas (another low power car) which is where many of the most popular sports cars of all time have raced. My guess is that they will end up becoming quite popular (even more so than they already are) as they age simply due to how good of a platform they actually are. There would be far more out there if they weren't still expensive.

To the point of power, 200HP for an OEM car designed to be tuned is nothing to sneeze at. Compared to many of the great cars of the 90's they aren't a huge amount slower. The fact is that the engine was designed to be improved. Tossing a turbo on the stock engine has proved that over 500HP is very possible. With only 300HP you are talking about making these a 12 second car thanks to the low weight.

Kailand09 > Casper
09/04/2013 at 17:47

I know how autox works, and I know there are classes...that still isn't my point. My point is the car could have been so much more and it is grossly underpowered.

The mere fact that you talk about aftermarket modifications is a moot point. You're comparing it to cars from 20 years ago now, that is still a technologically very long time ago. Sure, there are cars still competitive today from that era, but would you then try to compare a phone today to a 90's cell phone? You can see the ridiculous notion, there is no comparison at all.

A car should be judged by its stock form, because anyone can do anything to any car. I could throw a few modifications on any car and make it faster. Shit the LS engines are known to go well above 1,000 HP. Does that mean that a car with an LS is automatically a great car? Not at all. Sure the boxer is a great platform, but really that means nothing.

I see that you own a BRZ/FRS, and I'm not trying to offend your choice of vehicle. I'd rather see the BRZ/FRS than many other cars out there. As I said earlier, no need to get offended because you really are arguing my same point: toyobaru missed the mark. The car needs modification to be what it should have been, and that adds a good chunk of cash when the car already starts at $24.5k.

And by the sheer fact that you keep posting and defending the car in other responses here just proves that you're being a bit defensive. Again, I'm not trying to piss on your car, I think it's a decent car.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Decay buys too many beaters
09/04/2013 at 17:47

I'd agree if the FR-S/BRZ weren't in dire need of additional upgrades to actually be as good as the hype is. The suspension is very communicative despite the crappy tires but the poor brake pad quality and low grip means it might be fun, but it isn't as fast as its competitors.

I guess that's where I view it as overhyped - the price. The sticker might be low, but the actual price of admission is just as high as other cars with much more power. If you just like to zip around B-roads and don't do track duty then you're fine with the cheaper FRS/BRZ. But on a track? With straightaways? At least the miata is a true 2-seater so you get some weight and size savings to go with the lack of power. From what my friend experienced on the track, it is NOT a track day car. Although his brakes were fine at the end of the day, he just wished they had less fade and better high-speed abilities. He also complained of constant tire squeal which was expected.

Casper > Kailand09
09/04/2013 at 17:55

I actually don't like the car very much. I just dislike people making illogical arguments against things they haven't driven based on preconceived notions about what numbers on paper mean. I have actually driven every car that is comparable. There is nothing strikingly better in it's market segment. The closest would be the GC and the Mustang V6... both have pluses over the BRZ and negatives as well that balance out.

You may think they missed the mark, but sales are proving you wrong. While you or I would not purchase one for ourselves, that isn't really relevant. The same complaints can be said of the Miata, which has been a dominant force for decades.

Decay buys too many beaters > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
09/04/2013 at 17:57

Funny you should mention that, one of the first things I did was change out my pads for a much more grabby set (Project Mu, HC+800 all around).

You are right, it's not a track day car in stock form, but its just a tire upgrade away from being an autocross monster. And some power mods (or in my case I'm eventually planning a final drive/close ratio gearbox upgrade), could turn it into a pretty competent track car as well.

Kailand09 > Casper
09/04/2013 at 17:57

Sure, I haven't driven every car... That's where the "opinion" comes in.

Also, sales don't mean that. As I said, fanboys are fanboys... After all, Apple is still making money right?

Casper > Kailand09
09/04/2013 at 18:03

I'm not the one who insinuated that the term "sport" implied a high power vehicle, nor am I the one who tried to say they were poor at autocross simply because they didn't post the fastest laps of the day. You are the one with some weird preconceived notions of what numbers on paper would make a decent car, while I'm the one who has actually driven the cars and is telling you what the real issues are.

Yes, you can have an opinion, but an uneducated opinion is still just ignorance. Go drive the cars, then formulate opinions. Come back with a list of things you ACTUALLY dislike about the car, not what you have chosen to regurgitate from others. Just as there are fanboys there are anti-fanboys and you are the latter. You simply want to dislike something because you dislike the fact popular opinion is to like it.

Kailand09 > Casper
09/04/2013 at 18:11

not at all, I didn't imply sport meant high power. The lotus elise is a great example, but that car happens to be 800lbs or so lighter than the brz-frs. I also didn't say they did poor, my opinion is that they were not what they could have been. You're just reading and then taking what you think I said out of it. I don't get why you're spending so much time trying to defend the damn thing.

I've said a million times it is my opinion in an opinion thread. There is no argument to make here. I'm not an anti-fanboy. As I said, the car performed better than I expected at the track. I was comparing the car to the others in its class racing at the same time as well. How many times have you tracked or watched the twins on the track? I'm not regurgitating anything, they were my own observations.

Either way, you've been the one throwing insults now and questioning my *opinion* to a ridiculous degree. I'm not going to argue with you on my opinion any more, because honestly there shouldn't be one in the first place.

Casper > Kailand09
09/04/2013 at 18:20

What insults have I thrown around? Also, something simply being an opinion does not make it above question. I outlined where my conclusions were drawn from and explained why you need to rethink yours which have no foundation. That is all.

Montalvo > mr. idk
09/04/2013 at 20:04

I really like it but for +25k there are much better options especially if used. I'd rather pick up a 01-04 BMW M3 and use the rest of the cash on anything that would go wrong. Give me a bit more power from the engine preferably about 250 with 200lbft and you would have me sold.

Burrito de EJ25 > mr. idk
09/04/2013 at 22:34

But gross! V6 pony cars!

B_dol > mr. idk
09/04/2013 at 23:32

Bench/couch racing aside. I have actually test driven one, and now I own one.

Love it. And a few more for my 2 cents.

1. You want more than 200HP, this is a $25K car. Grow up or buy something else used.

2. Again didn't put enough horsepower in the perfect track car for you. Buy a Porsche Cayman.

JasonStern911 > mr. idk
09/05/2013 at 01:35

if they were $20k instead of $25k-27k+tax/title/license, I would be rocking one right now. but considering you can buy a low mileage 996 and have enough money to replace the motor with a junkyard motor should something go wrong, I went that route and appreciate the extra horsepower and torque.

still cool cars and I'd love to pick one up once they depreciate, though.

JasonStern911 > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
09/05/2013 at 01:37

Sad fact: A used RX-8 is only a better value until the factory warranty is up.

JasonStern911 > Burrito de EJ25
09/05/2013 at 01:38

curious the hate for them. the mustang and camaro aren't my favorite cars, but they're significantly more interesting than a camry/accord/civic/corolla/hyundai/etc.

JasonStern911 > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner
09/05/2013 at 01:39

LSX swap?

JasonStern911 > Saracen
09/05/2013 at 01:40

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Si…

Saracen > JasonStern911
09/05/2013 at 01:48

Well, I should say, the successor to the S14 that Nissan never brought to the US. I've experienced an S15, sorta. A friend of mine has a '98 240SX with a complete S15 drivetrain swap.

JasonStern911 > Saracen
09/05/2013 at 01:55

no worries. I have no personal experience with the s15 - I just posted it in case you were unaware it existed due to nissan not bringing it to the USA.

Saracen > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
09/05/2013 at 01:55

The tires were not for cost cutting, they were meant for the car to be fun, so that you could slide it around at low speeds.

The car is meant to be fun and involving out of the box. Not fast.

Saracen > JasonStern911
09/05/2013 at 02:00

I have been thinking about getting an S14 for years, but it just isn't worth it anymore. They're absurdly expensive for a new one, and just too slow. Getting any extra power out of it in California also requires drastic measures. I love the car but it's not happening.

I've considered the Toyobaru, but it's not practical enough, and I only really have space for one car right now anyway. And I want a 997 so bad I'd rather just wait a couple of years.

hethoughtofcars > mr. idk
09/05/2013 at 05:34

I really love them. I dig the idea of an actual affordable front engine, RWD car and I'm saving up to buy one. The "lack" of power does not bother me. Fun handling trumps straight ahead acceleration for me every time. My only wish is that they were available with a more useful hatchback, but considering everything else that is not a deal breaker.

ptak appreciates old racecars > mr. idk
09/05/2013 at 06:54

I love it. I wouldn't say I'm a massive fanboy, but I'd go so far as to say they're some of the best cars on the road today. I think people are sort of missing the point of this vehicle. Throughout Japan's automotive history, there have been some legendary models that have stood out - the Hakosuka Skyline, the 240Z, the AE86, the Silvia, etc. and the Toyobaru is the "next-in-line". It's carrying on that legacy of classic Japanese sports cars.

People say it lacks huevos . That's another reason why I think people are missing the car's point: the car is a blank canvas. Wasn't it practically created for customizers? If you don't like the power, add some. In 30 years, the few remaining stock Toyobarus will be sitting in a dimly-lit museum, like a vintage Toyoda or Daihatsu. The rest will have been modified by someone. With what I've heard is an exceptionally wide choice of after-market parts for this car, I don't see anything to complain about.

I guess it's just not a car for someone who doesn't intend to tinker with it (unless that someone is a crazed car collector with a feverish passion for completely stock cars...)

Bullitt417 > mr. idk
09/05/2013 at 07:33

I don't hate them, I just don't think they are anything special especially in day to day driving. I'm sure they come into their own on the track or a back road, but I didn't experience that on my test drive.

Still for $24,000 I believe there are other options that are faster (in a straight line), more usable on a daily basis, and cheaper. My conclusion is simple. I believe the cars should have been priced $2000 dollars lower OR had 250hp. I just don't they are a great value when stock.

Casey Kunselman > mr. idk
09/05/2013 at 08:08

I have 30k on mine now, love it! Previous car car was a 95 Miata, set up for stock class autocross with good shocks and tires. Before that a civic Si. Because I commute 80 miles a day on twisty mountain roads, I appreciate the excellent chassis and precision steering, and 27 mpg driving hard, with a warranty! Yeah, the stock tires suck, but throw on Michelin pilot super sports, and you have a sub 1:50 Laguna seca car. For a daily driver, quiet is good. Now, when the warranty is up: Boost!

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Saracen
09/05/2013 at 08:36

I agree, and there are plenty of cars that are not only fun and involving, but fast as well for not much more money. Hence why I find it surprising how heavily hyped the car is. I drove my friend's and I don't see/feel it. Personally, I found another friend's V6 mustang track pack was even more fun since it had the extra hp/torque to do more slides.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > JasonStern911
09/05/2013 at 09:48

Perfection. I would even drive it if it had an LSX in it.

JasonStern911 > Saracen
09/05/2013 at 22:29

Yeah, the drift and tuning scenes ruined the S14s in the U.S. If you're looking for a cheap beater car to drive until you can afford a 997, I recommend looking into a SW20 MR2. They're cheap (in non-turbo form, at least), typically stock/unmodified (again, in non-turbo form, at least), Toyota reliable, and will give you a feel for driving a car with a rear weight-bias.

Unless you're getting a C4 for AWD in winter, the BRZ/FRS is just as practical as a 997. Similar trunk space, similar skinny girls and children only backseats. It's not as fun as a 997, it's not as sexy as a 997, it will depreciate much quicker than a 997, etc., but you can't knock its practicality.

Saracen > JasonStern911
09/05/2013 at 22:56

Well, neither a 911 or a BRZ can be my only car. The real obstacle is that I don't have space for multiple cars. I drive too much and and I'm too active for either coupe to be my only car. I'm waiting for the real estate market to get to the point where I can sell my condo and get a house in a different area. Once I have more space I can go from one car that does a bit of everything (Golf R) into a a sports car and a more practical vehicle with 4WD (997 and likely FJ60 or FJ80).

I'm leaning towards C4/C4S/996TT because I like the appeal of having a sports car that is comfortable enough to GT and can handle most inclement weather conditions (and yes, I'd totally throw my box on it for weekend long ski trips).

JasonStern911 > Saracen
09/05/2013 at 23:01

I'm curious what exactly about a VW Golf R is more practical than a 997/BRZ, unless maybe you have a dog and are afraid of ruining the seats or are in a band and need to carry something like a drum set often.

Saracen > JasonStern911
09/06/2013 at 00:54

I don't see how you possibly think those cars are as practical as a five door hatch. Like the B6 wagon before it, it's been very useful. I'm into camping, skiing, rock climbing, cycling, etc. I do a lot of road trips. I want a sports car, it just can't be an only car.

JasonStern911 > Saracen
09/06/2013 at 22:14

Cargo isn't a problem. Get a roof rack:

Kinja'd!!!

And for long road trips, stick a pillow under your butt to compensate for the stiffer bucket seat.

And if you got the non-C4, driving a rear-engine, rear-wheel drive car in reverse is pretty much the same thing as driving a front-engine, front-wheel drive car, so bad weather isn't an excuse.

The only real advantage I can see is hauling people, but if you're driving a 911 around, then you'll likely be dating and associating with skinnier, hotter girls, at which point they should be able to easily fit in the back seat. Maybe if you towed a boat or needed to haul dirt bikes/quads or something...

I should have been a Porsche salesman. :)

Saracen > JasonStern911
09/10/2013 at 03:44

Oh, I have a box. Thule Atlantis 1800.

Might be a little big for a 997 though.

Kinja'd!!!

So even a RWD has good traction in snow. Makes sense I guess.

Realistically when the time comes I'm going to set a budget for the car and just buy the cleanest, lowest mileage 997 6MT coupe I can find, regardless of which engine or drivetrain.

JasonStern911 > Saracen
09/10/2013 at 11:45

If it is too big, I am sure Porsche will sell you a very expensive box. :)

The 911's RWD platform does better than the average RWD platform as there is more weight over the drive wheels. It doesn't remove the ability to power slide in the snow, although Porsche Stability Management (PSM) can help reduce that. You would still need winter tires with adequate tread depth.

Solid plan regarding finding the best car over your ideally optioned car. When I I was 996/986S shopping, I wanted a 996 with PSM (as 911s and Boxsters are tricky at to handle the limit) with all-wheel drive. Unfortunately, that significantly limited the options on the west coast, leaving me looking at 80k+ mile models with only recent service records, or C4S models bordering on 986TT prices. Eventually, I came across a C2 with just traction control, but with under 20k miles and full service records indicating annual oil changes/inspections despite the low mileage, all from an old man that didn't appear to track it. My local, trusted Porsche independent service shop did a pre-purchase inspection, and the car came back as one of the best they had seen given its age. So, score.